Author Topic: Certified Mail / Electronic Reciept instead of Green Card  (Read 8526 times)

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HarryC

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Re: Certified Mail / Electronic Reciept instead of Green Card
« Reply #30 on: June 23, 2011 12:46:49 PM »
Most civil rules I've read say "item is considered served when it is mailed."  By that standard, a receipt showing it was mailed should be enough.

Having said that, I use certified when it is important (like service of a Motion) and CMRR when it is REALLY important (like a DV or arb election)...  something I could conceivably sue over.
I'm not a lawyer and I'm not even very smart.  You'd be well advised not to listen to anything I have to say.

Lecasbas

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Re: Certified Mail / Electronic Reciept instead of Green Card
« Reply #31 on: June 23, 2011 02:28:56 PM »
The mail box rule will only carry so much water.  It is well known that the post office is not 100% on their deliveries.  If the other side called them for a witness their stance would have to be, "Yes, we got the thing but we have no idea where it went." 





duh

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Re: Certified Mail / Electronic Reciept instead of Green Card
« Reply #32 on: June 23, 2011 05:03:32 PM »
Perhaps your experience alone will serve as an answer to those who are considering using electronic service.

There's just something comforting about holding that green card in your hot little hand!  :)

Yes, as BJ says, it is comforting to have physical evidence..... however!

More then once I have sent CMRRR and never got that green card returned.

Now I sometimes will opt for just online checking and printing the info from there, but
if I am waiting for the green card will also print the info from the web.

I challenged the post office about one of them. They told me I needed to wait 30 days and they then would 'try' and trace it.
I am not an attorney. My posts about my experiences are for entertainment and  possibly educational purposes only.

If you need legal help, you should seek legal counsel.

Lecasbas

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Re: Certified Mail / Electronic Reciept instead of Green Card
« Reply #33 on: June 24, 2011 01:18:18 PM »
Quote
Yes, as BJ says, it is comforting to have physical evidence..... however!

More then once I have sent CMRRR and never got that green card returned.

It is comforting to have the green card but the down side is that the non return of that green card establishes that their can be no presumption of delivery regardless to independent verification that the letter was sent.  In Moya v United States the court said:

While the law presumes delivery of a properly addressed piece of mail, McPartlin v. Commissioner, 653 F.2d 1185, 1191 (7th Cir.1981), no such presumption exists for certified mail where the return receipt is not received by the sender, Mulder v. Commissioner, 855 F.2d 208, 212 (5th Cir.1988); McPartlin, 653 F.2d at 1191. The reason is that the sender of a certified letter who does not receive the return receipt is on notice that the addressee may not have received the letter. See McPartlin, 653 F.2d at 1191. It is then incumbent upon the sender either to inquire with the addressee or send the letter again. In this case, plaintiff did neither. Plaintiff had strong reason to believe the VA had not received her letter, yet she did nothing. Under these circumstances, any presumption that defendant received the letter does not apply.

http://openjurist.org/35/f3d/501/moya-v-united-states

Here, the Moya would have been better off to have sent the letter regular mail because she had independent proof in the form of an affidavit from her lawyer who witnessed the mailing.  This independent proof which would have normally established delivery was cancelled due to the non return of the green card.

This case is a perfect example of why one should immediately follow up on all CMRRR mailings until there is a returned green card or a T&C confirming delivery.  If either of these cannot be had then another CMRRR should be sent.  If the second CMRRR also fails then the sender needs to qualify the address or the system used to send the letter.

One should also send for dv immediately after receiving the mini-miranda so that there is a better chance of getting this extra cmrrr'ing done within the 30 day window.

excelsior

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Re: Certified Mail / Electronic Reciept instead of Green Card
« Reply #34 on: June 24, 2011 02:43:47 PM »
I faced this very issue last week in court.  I sent certified return receipt mail to opposing side.  The opposing side did not sign for/pick up this mail.

At my hearing, the Judge went straight to the issue of service before even looking at any of the arguments.  I had my certified receipt and a printout of the USPS tracking status.

I presented this to the bailiff/Judge and before the bailiff could even get it in the Judge's hands, she said, "where's your green card?"

The other side was able to get a continuance just for avoiding picking up their mail, and I was lectured by the Judge for not serving the other side properly.  Nevermind that I had followed the civil procedures and paid for an official sheriffs' summons 4 months earlier, nevermind that nowhere in the state civil procedures does it require return receipt, nevermind that I already had the motion down on the court's calendar 4 months earlier, and nevermind that both court clerks came running out of court to tell me point blank that the Judge was wrong and I could appeal her decision.

What I got from the Judge was, "If you want to be your own attorney as a pro se, you need to learn the rules of civil procedure."

Two attorneys came out of the courtroom to tell me not to worry about it, because I was still right in my service.

The point is, attorneys can get away with just regular mail, or certified mail, or maybe they don't need a green card.  But my experience has shown that pro se's are held to a different (higher) standard because Judges are inherently questioning the pro se litigant's knowledge/ignorance/misunderstanding of the law.

Lecasbas is dead on when he says to DV early and repeatedly until you get the green card before the 30 day window.  I have taken the position to assume that the same difficult Judge will review every action of mine.  If I don't have that green card, I can't reliably move forward with litigation.  Certified Return Receipt seems like it costs more, but it leaves no room for confusion in Court.  When you add in things like court continuances, certified return receipt mail is a bargain.

Lecasbas

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Re: Certified Mail / Electronic Reciept instead of Green Card
« Reply #35 on: June 24, 2011 03:15:20 PM »
Yep, even though sometimes one has to chase after the cmrrr to heard it into the right corral, it ends up being the cheaper more reliable way of delivery available to the common folk.  And, the Green card is like the Visa card in that it is accepted everywhere.

arnanda

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Re: Certified Mail / Electronic Reciept instead of Green Card
« Reply #36 on: July 14, 2011 07:35:07 AM »
I've opted for both.  That way there's no excuses, I have two signatures two proofs of them picking it up.
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Sweets27

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Re: Certified Mail / Electronic Reciept instead of Green Card
« Reply #37 on: July 15, 2011 09:52:46 AM »
I opted for rlrctronic last week, and all I can say is that I'm glad it was the same person who signed the last CMRRR on hard copy. My electronic was nearly illegible and I won't be doing it again!

kevinmanheim

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Re: Certified Mail / Electronic Reciept instead of Green Card
« Reply #38 on: July 15, 2011 11:25:56 AM »
I'll never use the electronic signature again.

Too many of them end up being an illegible scribble, or even a blank box.


kennypowers

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Re: Certified Mail / Electronic Reciept instead of Green Card
« Reply #39 on: July 15, 2011 02:50:59 PM »

More then once I have sent CMRRR and never got that green card returned.


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