Author Topic: More discussion about Liens on vehicles and judgements  (Read 941 times)

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bankrupt trader

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More discussion about Liens on vehicles and judgements
« on: May 18, 2018 02:09:36 AM »
The only asset I really have worth anything is a car. It says in the topic above in how to make yourself judgement proof to put a lien on it.

Well, it just happened that my father became a lien holder on my vehicle recently. I don't want to go into the details about the lien but I did owe him over $30,000 for loans he made to me in the past. I am not going to say if he also lent me money recently and if that is also part of the lien.

Some questions about this topic as I was not able to find any detailed information on this and would like to discuss it more. Surprising nobody has even asked about car liens in that whole topic.

1) If I get a judgement against me will a creditor be able to send a sheriff to my house and seize that car with my father being the first and only lien holder on the title?

2) If I get a judgement and they do seize the car, would my father get paid back his $30,000 first before the creditor got any money?

3) What are the odds that a creditor will try to go after that car with a lien on it? They don't know the miles or condition, but they may assume they can get max 20-30K,  but its questionable with it going to auction if they can get anywhere near the highest price.

4) In the "how to become judgement proof" the aurthor recommends placing two liens on the car. Does this really make a difference one vs two?

5) If I file bankruptcy, will my father get paid back first before other unsecured creditors, or will he share in the sale of the car?

6) Does the details matter about how I owe the money to my father, for example, if my father placed this lien on the car for lending me money for the car 5 to 10 years ago that I never got around to paying him back, will this affect anything?

7) Does it matter that the lien was placed years after my father lent me money?

8) What if I owe my father money for past debts, and he also lends me new money right now, does that new money he lent me right now make any difference for judgement or bankruptcy?

Please add anything else to this that you don't see and want to share.

Thank you







« Last Edit: May 18, 2018 02:14:06 AM by bankrupt trader »

CleaningUp

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Re: More discussion about Liens on vehicles and judgements
« Reply #1 on: May 18, 2018 02:29:13 AM »
1. Yes.

2.  Yes, he would get as much, up to $30K of the proceeds minus the costs of taking the vehicle and selling it.  Don't count on it going to an auction where you can get fair market value, even if it IS an all-original, concourse quality 1964 and 1/2 Mustang.

3.  Depends on how thoroughly they catch on to your game.

4.  Yeah...Two liens make it much for much less of a chance that they will get any money out of the transaction.  Also... See answer to Question 3  Two liens to close relatives gets the flag a little higher for them to see.  Also, liens to relatives often go sour when the relatives understand the game you are playing and decide to get greedy.  You may not see either the car or the money again.  Don't ever think it can't happen to you.

4.  Maybe, maybe not.  Depends on whether or not the Court sees through your paper transaction.  Are you involving your father in your future legal nightmare?  Has he consulted an attorney independent of you?

5.  Maybe, maybe not.  Depends on whether or not the Court views it as a sham transaction.  Two liens on the vehicle?  They might just start poking around where you don't want them to be looking.

6.  Could, if the opposing council pushes in the wrong place.

7.  See answer to Question 6.

8.  No.  It will be part of your bankruptcy estate.  He may get nothing.  See third sentence of answer to Question 4.


General Comment:  It seems to me that you are placing your firearm higher and higher on your body.  You may be getting into areas where it could get really painful unless you spend the next.  Notice that the SOL for debts in most jurisdictions toll when you are out of the reach of their court systems voluntarily.  That means all of the time that you spend overseas just is added on to the SOL period, so you could be adding months or years to your exposure if you decide not to go through with the bankruptcy..

But hey...It's your body; shoot it where you will.  Just don't cry that we didn't warn you that there could be consequences.

bankrupt trader

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Re: More discussion about Liens on vehicles and judgements
« Reply #2 on: May 18, 2018 03:01:57 AM »
Cleaningup, thank you for the response.

How will the creditor know how much the lien is on that vehicle?

Without the creditor knowing, are you are saying they will still seize that vehicle and force a sale just for the fact that they may get some money out of it? Would you say that most creditors will do this in the hope that the first lien amount is not that much?

The creditor will see the lien and title date as being recent also, they will see that it is a new lien, will that hopefully stop them?

If this is the case then a lien really doesn't help me at all from the vehicle getting seized?. Yes, maybe my father will get paid first and that is good, but I didn't want the vehicle to be sized.

I thought that the creditor would just put a 2nd lien on the vehicle in this case?



11181986

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Re: More discussion about Liens on vehicles and judgements
« Reply #3 on: May 18, 2018 01:52:52 PM »
Cars are very rarely worth taking.  I've seen it done three times over the course of about 10 years, and it is usually  occurs where the judgment creditor has personal animus against the debtor, not that it was a sound business decision. 

That being said, it is effective.  You'd be surprised how quickly a judgment debtor can come up with some money to either payoff or make a partial payment when his or her car is hooked by a Sheriff.

Clydesmom66

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Re: More discussion about Liens on vehicles and judgements
« Reply #4 on: May 18, 2018 01:58:57 PM »
1) If I get a judgement against me will a creditor be able to send a sheriff to my house and seize that car with my father being the first and only lien holder on the title?

YES

2) If I get a judgement and they do seize the car, would my father get paid back his $30,000 first before the creditor got any money?

Once the creditor figures out the fraud you and your father are perpetuating:  NO.  They can ask the BK court or the judgment court to strip the lien and allow them sole access to the asset.
 
3) What are the odds that a creditor will try to go after that car with a lien on it? They don't know the miles or condition, but they may assume they can get max 20-30K,  but its questionable with it going to auction if they can get anywhere near the highest price.


In your situation:  at least 90%.  Your lien is fraudulent to conceal the asset from forfeiture.

4) In the "how to become judgement proof" the aurthor recommends placing two liens on the car. Does this really make a difference one vs two?

If the primary lien holder was actually a creditor it would make a difference but in your case your father is not an actual creditor. He is now a co-conspirator in your fraud on the creditors.  Congratulations.

5) If I file bankruptcy, will my father get paid back first before other unsecured creditors, or will he share in the sale of the car?


If you actually get away with the fraud, yes.  WHEN the court finds out what you did:  NO.

6) Does the details matter about how I owe the money to my father, for example, if my father placed this lien on the car for lending me money for the car 5 to 10 years ago that I never got around to paying him back, will this affect anything?

The details very much matter which is why we implored you to get a consult with a bankruptcy attorney which you refused to do.  Now your father is committing fraud with you.  Good job.

7) Does it matter that the lien was placed years after my father lent me money?

YES.

How will the creditor know how much the lien is on that vehicle?

If you file BK you and your father would have to disclose all the details of the lien.  If you are simply sued they will haul you in for a debtors exam where the same disclosure(s) would be required under oath as well.

Without the creditor knowing, are you are saying they will still seize that vehicle and force a sale just for the fact that they may get some money out of it? Would you say that most creditors will do this in the hope that the first lien amount is not that much?

In your case with fraud involved the court is going to be way more stringent in seizing the vehicle to satisfy the creditors.  The creditor asks the court to seize it and the court orders it.  Once the court knows you committed fraud they will not hesitate to take it. 

The creditor will see the lien and title date as being recent also, they will see that it is a new lien, will that hopefully stop them?

This new lien will be a GIANT red flag to the court that you are committing fraud.  It could actually escalate the speed at which they seize your assets to keep you from hiding any more from the people you owe money to.

If this is the case then a lien really doesn't help me at all from the vehicle getting seized?. Yes, maybe my father will get paid first and that is good, but I didn't want the vehicle to be sized.

We have been trying to tell you this all along.  The "professional deadbeats guide" is based on legitimate debt NOT fraud.  As I said before now you got your father involved in the fraud. Not a good plan.

I thought that the creditor would just put a 2nd lien on the vehicle in this case?


For a high end vehicle in good condition and a small debt of a few thousand dollars:  yes they could and would do that.  In your case with fraud and over $100,000 in debt, attorney fees and costs:  NO.  They will want every red cent they can get their hands on.

I reiterate my first statement:  you are a gigantic piece of garbage and I say that only because they will edit out the word I really want to use.  You are so focused on your own gratification you do not care one bit that now your own father is committing the fraud with you.  I used to feel sorry for him but if he willingly agreed to this lien scam then he almost, ALMOST deserves what he gets.  He should have seized the car years ago when you didn't pay and he should be putting you on the street for your devil may care plan to tour Asia instead of paying your debts and being responsible FIRST.   You are scum.  I have never wanted to see anyone got to jail more and that includes politicians and violent criminals.
Be VERY careful following advice from the internet! What worked for someone with thousands of posts on a message board may not work for YOU in your state.  Consult a lawyer when ever possible.

bankrupt trader

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Re: More discussion about Liens on vehicles and judgements
« Reply #5 on: May 18, 2018 04:33:27 PM »
You are only assuming there is fraud involved, I am not giving, nor did I ever give the details of the lien agreement.

How is it fraud if I owe him money and there is a written agreement for that, and he places a lien on the vehicle he never got paid back for? If I had two creditors, one could seize the car before the other.


How is it fraud if he is lending me new money also with a new agreement, I'm living in the 2nd family part of the house which has a rental value of $1500 a month, should he just let me live there for free when he can easily rent it? The judge can come to my house and see that I am living in this whole rental unit which is separated from the main house.

He is lending me money because I just lost a half million dollars of my own money and having nothing right now, why should he not protect himself when any creditor will just come in and take what they want also? It is the smart thing to do since there is nothing illegal or fraudulent about it.

There is all proper documentation for this and proper lien agreements.

So please, let me know how is it fraud if we had a written agreement from the past but he now decides to secure that with a car lien when he knows I just lost all my money?

So the judge will see the loan agreement, and I will show it to him with also the check that he wrote me the money for years ago and the bank statements from that time all which show he lent me the money, because he did. There is no fraud.






CleaningUp

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Re: More discussion about Liens on vehicles and judgements
« Reply #6 on: May 18, 2018 05:11:44 PM »
We're merely pointing out to you that Bankruptcy judges aren't controlled by the unions or political machines...

And they are somewhat skilled at smoking out sham transactions for what they are.

The red flags are because the transactions are between your father and you...close-relation financial transactions executed in the period BEFORE a bankruptcy filing ALWAYS get the Trustee's attention.

Your reliance on the old-boy network to bail you out of this one is, at best, misplaced. 

BrokeBob

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Re: More discussion about Liens on vehicles and judgements
« Reply #7 on: May 18, 2018 06:07:26 PM »
I regret replying to this guy earlier. 

Not long ago, it looked like he realized he was in way over his head, and was going to seek professional advice.  Now, it looks like he is back to his old tricks.

If I were paranoid, I would wonder if this were a plant designed to implicate this web site in abetting criminal activity. 

As it is, the OP is skating very close to the line, and may have already crossed it.  Not being an attorney, and not even knowing where the OP lives, I cannot make that judgment. 

I think there is a possible danger to this web site.  Things could go very badly, and then the OP could claim he got legal advice on this site for his shenanigans. 

I have no advice to the OP other than consult a competent BK attorney.

I broke my vow of not giving the OP any advice because I thought he had realized the error of his ways.  Now that I see he hasn't, I won't respond at all to the OP any more.  Perhaps when he has consulted an attorney.

This is not the first time on this forum we have been saying to a poster "careful, you are getting into very dangerous territory, you should reconsider your strategy".  Those of us who have been here for a while recall some very spectacular train wrecks. 

Flyingifr

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Re: More discussion about Liens on vehicles and judgements
« Reply #8 on: May 18, 2018 06:41:50 PM »
In reading BT's original post, he seems to know the answers. Clydesmom and Cleaning Up both gave him good answers to his questions, but in reading the original post I see a BIG problem, and that is one regarding the timing of dad's lien. If dad's lien was put on the car a long time ago, no problem. If dad's lien was placed on the car recently or hasn't yet been placed, I see a BIG problem, and that is that dad's lien, no matter how much money the OP owes dad, seems to be put there to squeeze out all other creditors.

Given the facts, if I were the OP, I would not be bringing dad down to the Motor Vehicles Department to put dad's lien on the vehicle. I would be allowing dad to sue me and get a Judgment, and let DAD place that Judgment on the title to the car as a lienholder. This is the step the other creditors should be taking, and if dad happens to beat them to the punch, so be it - that will stand up in Court (whether it be Civil Court or BK Court) a lot better than dad all of a sudden getting a lien 5 years or so after the loan is made.
BTW-the Flyingifr Method does work. (quoted from Hannah on Infinite Credit, September 19, 2006)

I think of a telephone as a Debt Collector's crowbar. With such a device it is possible to pry one's mouth open wide enough to allow the insertion of a foot or two.

Debtors Exams are the perfect place for us Senior Citizens to show off our recently acquired Alzheimers.

Founder of the Credit Terrorist Training Camp (Debtorboards)

Flyingifr

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Re: More discussion about Liens on vehicles and judgements
« Reply #9 on: May 18, 2018 06:49:08 PM »
I regret replying to this guy earlier. 

Not long ago, it looked like he realized he was in way over his head, and was going to seek professional advice.  Now, it looks like he is back to his old tricks.

If I were paranoid, I would wonder if this were a plant designed to implicate this web site in abetting criminal activity. 

As it is, the OP is skating very close to the line, and may have already crossed it.  Not being an attorney, and not even knowing where the OP lives, I cannot make that judgment. 

I think there is a possible danger to this web site.  Things could go very badly, and then the OP could claim he got legal advice on this site for his shenanigans. 

I have no advice to the OP other than consult a competent BK attorney.

I broke my vow of not giving the OP any advice because I thought he had realized the error of his ways.  Now that I see he hasn't, I won't respond at all to the OP any more.  Perhaps when he has consulted an attorney.

This is not the first time on this forum we have been saying to a poster "careful, you are getting into very dangerous territory, you should reconsider your strategy".  Those of us who have been here for a while recall some very spectacular train wrecks.

I agree that he seems to be bound and determined to skate over the line into a Fraud of Creditors claim, but the advice he is getting here is prudent and correct. No one can stop a DB member from self-destructing their own case. For proof of this, I refer you to Lizard King's famous "500 lawsuits in 500 days" (or something like that) shennanigans or Coltfan's inability to keep his fingers off the keyboard as he sued and got sued. I notice both of them have been very silent lately.
BTW-the Flyingifr Method does work. (quoted from Hannah on Infinite Credit, September 19, 2006)

I think of a telephone as a Debt Collector's crowbar. With such a device it is possible to pry one's mouth open wide enough to allow the insertion of a foot or two.

Debtors Exams are the perfect place for us Senior Citizens to show off our recently acquired Alzheimers.

Founder of the Credit Terrorist Training Camp (Debtorboards)

Clydesmom66

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Re: More discussion about Liens on vehicles and judgements
« Reply #10 on: May 18, 2018 08:00:22 PM »
I agree that he seems to be bound and determined to skate over the line into a Fraud of Creditors claim, but the advice he is getting here is prudent and correct. No one can stop a DB member from self-destructing their own case. For proof of this, I refer you to Lizard King's famous "500 lawsuits in 500 days" (or something like that) shennanigans or Coltfan's inability to keep his fingers off the keyboard as he sued and got sued. I notice both of them have been very silent lately.

I can't speak to the Lizard poster but Coltfan got hired by the lawyer who represented him in that Federal suit.  One of the conditions of working for her was that he go radio silent on the internet.  I found it ironic that he raked her over the coals when that case went south blaming her for almost all of it then went to work for her.
Be VERY careful following advice from the internet! What worked for someone with thousands of posts on a message board may not work for YOU in your state.  Consult a lawyer when ever possible.

ironfist

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Re: More discussion about Liens on vehicles and judgements
« Reply #11 on: May 18, 2018 09:12:37 PM »
I'm going to talk around the issue a little bit...

Reading the OP, and admittedly reading between the lines a bit too much, why would someone who wants to be judgment proof drive a vehicle that's ostensibly worth more than $30k even when it's 5-10 years old? I get that from the statement about a credit seizing the vehicle, selling it at auction, and the primary lienholder (his dad in this case) getting his $30k first.

I could be misunderstanding the whole thing, but if I was in dire financial straits and had to default on my debts, I would be selling an expensive vehicle and buying something a bit more practical. If I knew I could net $40k or so from the sale, that car would be gone ASAP and I'd pick up a used Toyota Corolla or something. Heck, I'd probably get a car with cosmetic hail damage just so I knew the value would be close to the exemption and an unattractive option for creditors armed with a judgment.

I'd use the remaining balance for regular living expenses (you know... food, shelter, heat, etc), which is in no way fraudulent.

That's just me.

BellEbutton

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Re: More discussion about Liens on vehicles and judgements
« Reply #12 on: May 18, 2018 09:29:08 PM »
Your father would be the 2nd lienholder on the car.  The 1st lienholder's lien takes priority.

Flyingifr

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Re: More discussion about Liens on vehicles and judgements
« Reply #13 on: May 18, 2018 09:38:40 PM »
Your father would be the 2nd lienholder on the car.  The 1st lienholder's lien takes priority.

Absent a 1st lienholder, dad would be 1st.
BTW-the Flyingifr Method does work. (quoted from Hannah on Infinite Credit, September 19, 2006)

I think of a telephone as a Debt Collector's crowbar. With such a device it is possible to pry one's mouth open wide enough to allow the insertion of a foot or two.

Debtors Exams are the perfect place for us Senior Citizens to show off our recently acquired Alzheimers.

Founder of the Credit Terrorist Training Camp (Debtorboards)

BellEbutton

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Re: More discussion about Liens on vehicles and judgements
« Reply #14 on: May 18, 2018 10:03:50 PM »
Absent a 1st lienholder, dad would be 1st.

I should have included that my response was dependent upon whether or not he still owed money on the car to a bank.

 

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