Author Topic: DV Letter With Possibility of ID Theft  (Read 12047 times)

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Yescat

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Re: DV Letter With Possibility of ID Theft
« Reply #30 on: March 08, 2016 09:08:50 PM »
delete
« Last Edit: March 08, 2016 09:13:13 PM by Yescat »

Yescat

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Re: DV Letter With Possibility of ID Theft
« Reply #31 on: March 08, 2016 09:17:34 PM »
I think fantasizing about such extremes will also scare someone who has been legitimately victimized. 40% of the population have been arrested, some for good reasons some for bogus reasons, and have to live with the trauma of being treated like an animal. I know many people who would feel very uncomfortable walking into a police station to do what it's their right to do. This kind of fear mongering won't help. I bet eventually the CA's are going to be putting out propaganda like this to scare people into not exercising their rights (once people on these boards stop doing it for them). They definitely did it 20 years ago when I first sought to repair my credit. They would send people to this link at the FTC that said something like, "disputing a debt is a crime if you know it's yours."

Bruno the JDB Killer

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Re: DV Letter With Possibility of ID Theft
« Reply #32 on: March 08, 2016 09:19:52 PM »
Why are you jumping so directly to such extremes?
That is not even remotely what is being discussed here in this topic.

Lawsuit scenarios are not the issue here. That is a straw man argument.

This is a discussion of the OP's letter, the process and the likely results of the process.
Re-read his first post in this topic.

And I am entirely correct. An individual doesn't need to prove their ID Theft claim at all in order to file a police report. If you don't recognize a debt, you are perfectly within your rights to file a police report, fill out the FTC affidavit and then mail those two items to all relevant parties. It is not at all illegal to do that. In fact, it is the recommended course of action by the FTC and just about every valid source out there.

And most CAs, JDBs, OCs and credit bureaus will accept that documentation promptly, close their account and delete any negative tradelines. That is how this process works.

I don't understand why you are jumping to such extreme scenarios in what is a very common process that is generally accepted by everyone.


There is nothing extreme about warning people about what can happen to them if they file a false claim. Your friend had the IQ of plant life to let somebody do this to him. She was the one who made the payments, but he never filed ID theft, correct? What is your point?
I am not an attorney. Any information I post is strictly my opinion and should be treated as such.

Yescat

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Re: DV Letter With Possibility of ID Theft
« Reply #33 on: March 08, 2016 09:20:48 PM »
Interesting approach.

A loser, but interesting nonetheless.

When it comes to the pushing and shoving of law suit, YOU are the one that is going to have establish...to the preponderance of the evidence...that it is, indeed, identity theft.  After all, you'll be the one that is raising it as a defense.

You seem to like sailing too close to the wind.  It's been proven time and again that it is better to sail the longer course faster than the shorter course much more slowly.

The very reason for the creation of this law was so victims would stop being "pushed and shoved". You're talking like a CA.

Yescat

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Re: DV Letter With Possibility of ID Theft
« Reply #34 on: March 08, 2016 09:31:04 PM »

There is nothing extreme about warning people about what can happen to them if they file a false claim. Your friend had the IQ of plant life to let somebody do this to him. She was the one who made the payments, but he never filed ID theft, correct? What is your point?

No need to call people names. How was he to know? She would intercept the bill before he saw it. They worked during the day she worked at night so was home during the day so it was easy for her. Now they use a Box to make sure she can't get into their mail. And he did file for ID theft directly with AMEX. No police report. Just an affidavit. They deleted everything. My point was the fraudulent account records can look normal in every way and still be fraudulent.

RocketGoBoom

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Re: DV Letter With Possibility of ID Theft
« Reply #35 on: March 08, 2016 09:33:56 PM »

There is nothing extreme about warning people about what can happen to them if they file a false claim.

You are extreme. You are making straw man arguments.
Nobody here suggested filing a false claim.

You are trying to claim there is some high barrier to 'prove' ID Theft before you file a police report or the FTC affidavit. There is not. There is no requirement to prove anything. The burden of proof is not on the individual. If you don't recognize it, you are perfectly fine filing a police report. It is recommended by the FTC.


RocketGoBoom

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Re: DV Letter With Possibility of ID Theft
« Reply #36 on: March 08, 2016 09:47:38 PM »
While ID theft may not have to be provable, wouldn't it have to be plausible?   If claim of ID theft is not made until a credit card is charged off and purchased by a JDB, doesn't the plausibility bar become higher?

In the absence of any documentation provided by the CA or JDB, how would you know?

As mentioned by others, the FDCPA validation bar is very low. They don't have to provide much at all.

But if they choose to provide minimal validation info that doesn't really establish much, then by that same concept I think most people could plausibly claim ignorance as to what the debt is. So if you don't recognize it, file a police report and fill out the FTC affidavit. Poof... It is gone.

The bar is very low for filing a police report.
It is not an earth shaking event.
You don't have to prove anything.

RocketGoBoom

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Re: DV Letter With Possibility of ID Theft
« Reply #37 on: March 08, 2016 10:16:05 PM »
No need to call people names. How was he to know? She would intercept the bill before he saw it. They worked during the day she worked at night so was home during the day so it was easy for her. Now they use a Box to make sure she can't get into their mail. And he did file for ID theft directly with AMEX. No police report. Just an affidavit. They deleted everything. My point was the fraudulent account records can look normal in every way and still be fraudulent.

That is a very good point. Account records and statements and history of payments don't disprove Identity Theft claims. There are many scenarios out there.

The most common form of identity theft is family members or former co-workers. The scenario where the acct application seems legitimate is most likely to get approved. Think about it.





RocketGoBoom

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Re: DV Letter With Possibility of ID Theft
« Reply #38 on: March 08, 2016 11:12:41 PM »

Some tactics work well to make it difficult for collectors, but some of them can get you arrested. Better read section 21 of that affidavit before you do this.

It has been a while since I looked at the FTC affidavit, but I just did so again because of this topic.

https://www.consumer.ftc.gov/articles/pdf-0094-identity-theft-affidavit.pdf

Section 21 appears to be optional. That is made very clear in section 22.
Individuals can skip section 21, which seems be the section that would carry any legal risk that Bruno is concerned about.

Section 22 confirms that Yescat is correct. The police report is optional. I was not aware of that.

Quote
If you do not choose to file a report with law enforcement, you may use this form as an Identity
Theft Affidavit to prove to each of the companies where the thief misused your information that
you are not responsible for the fraud.
While many companies accept this affidavit, others require
that you submit different forms. Check with each company to see if it accepts this form. You
should also check to see if it requires notarization.

So it seems the process is even easier, with lower minimum standards, than I implied earlier in this topic.
Getting it notarized is also optional.

I would like to apologize for misinforming anyone that a police report is required to file an FTC recommended Identity Theft claim.
There is no police report requirement. I guess the police report just adds some weight to the overall set of documents if someone feels it is needed.

If an individual completes only the FTC affidavit (while skipping section 21), that appears to be enough for the FDCPA/FCRA process of dealing with a JDB/CA/OC.

However if you look at section 20, it is made clear that filing a police report also will result in faster deletions from the credit bureau.
So everyone should do whatever is appropriate for their scenario.

Since the bar is so low for a police report, and often a JDB or CA doesn't provide any documentation at all from a debt validation request, then it is very plausible to file a police report. In the absence of any support documentation, in response to a reasonable request by an individual, you are on solid ground to be able to file a minimal police report as part of this process. If the JDB/CA/OC comes back later with something more substantial that jogs your memory, you can always withdraw the police report.

« Last Edit: March 08, 2016 11:50:05 PM by RocketGoBoom »

Yescat

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Re: DV Letter With Possibility of ID Theft
« Reply #39 on: March 08, 2016 11:47:25 PM »
In the absence of any documentation provided by the CA or JDB, how would you know?

As mentioned by others, the FDCPA validation bar is very low. They don't have to provide much at all.

But if they choose to provide minimal validation info that doesn't really establish much, then by that same concept I think most people could plausibly claim ignorance as to what the debt is. So if you don't recognize it, file a police report and fill out the FTC affidavit. Poof... It is gone.

The bar is very low for filing a police report.
It is not an earth shaking event.
You don't have to prove anything.

And if in the DV letter you mention you need full validation because you are trying to rule out or verify identity theft, and then they fail to give it to you there is even more reason to be justified in filing an ID theft affidavit!

Actually, due to their business practices they are obstructing justice and making it easy on the perp and hard on the victim. The quote I gave from the police websites alludes to this.

"identity theft cases are generally difficult to prove beyond a reasonable doubt due to a lack of adequate physical evidence. This is due in part to standard business practices (or policies) as businesses conduct day-to-day operations. Businesses are normally unable to provide necessary evidence (applications, contracts, receipts, etc.)"

Yescat

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Re: DV Letter With Possibility of ID Theft
« Reply #40 on: March 08, 2016 11:51:39 PM »
delete: Sorry, for some reason when I edit a post it's making it into a quote in a whole new message.

RocketGoBoom

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Re: DV Letter With Possibility of ID Theft
« Reply #41 on: March 08, 2016 11:59:51 PM »
And if in the DV letter you mention you need full validation because you are trying to rule out or verify identity theft, and then they fail to give it to you there is even more reason to be justified in filing an ID theft affidavit!


That is an excellent point. Referring back to your original post that started this topic, you might phrase it this way...

Quote
   This account may not be mine or might be ID theft related.  Please supply all account records, including personal addresses, Billing addresses, copy of account application with Signature and history of transactions and payments. In the absence of your ability to provide all of these documents, then I can only assume that this is identity theft. Please take the appropriate ID theft actions as required by the FDCPA and FCRA.

Then if they respond with a form letter or anything less than what you requested, you are on solid ground with filing the FTC ID Theft affidavit and the police report (optional).
Poof, it is gone. Checkmate.

Yescat

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Re: DV Letter With Possibility of ID Theft
« Reply #42 on: March 09, 2016 12:36:01 AM »
It has been a while since I looked at the FTC affidavit, but I just did so again because of this topic.

https://www.consumer.ftc.gov/articles/pdf-0094-identity-theft-affidavit.pdf

Section 21 appears to be optional. That is made very clear in section 22.
Individuals can skip section 21, which seems be the section that would carry any legal risk that Bruno is concerned about.

Section 22 confirms that Yescat is correct. The police report is optional. I was not aware of that.

So it seems the process is even easier, with lower minimum standards, than I implied earlier in this topic.
Getting it notarized is also optional.

I would like to apologize for misinforming anyone that a police report is required to file an FTC recommended Identity Theft claim.
There is no police report requirement. I guess the police report just adds some weight to the overall set of documents if someone feels it is needed.

If an individual completes only the FTC affidavit (while skipping section 21), that appears to be enough for the FDCPA/FCRA process of dealing with a JDB/CA/OC.

However if you look at section 20, it is made clear that filing a police report also will result in faster deletions from the credit bureau.
So everyone should do whatever is appropriate for their scenario.

Since the bar is so low for a police report, and often a JDB or CA doesn't provide any documentation at all from a debt validation request, then it is very plausible to file a police report. In the absence of any support documentation, in response to a reasonable request by an individual, you are on solid ground to be able to file a minimal police report as part of this process. If the JDB/CA/OC comes back later with something more substantial that jogs your memory, you can always withdraw the police report.

If you look closely at the declarations portion of the Affidavit you can even state, "you are OR are not willing to work with law enforcement if charges are brought against the person(s) who committed the fraud.

Whether you did OR did not authorize anyone to use my name or personal information to obtain money, credit, loans, goods, or services or for any other purpose as described in this report.

Whether you did OR did not receive any money, goods, services, or other benefit as a result of the events described in this report."

This is a ruse! There's nothing in the statute that mentions anything those questions are alluding to. "Are you willing to work with law enforcement?" What bunk! What's implied is if you answer any of these questions in the negative you won't be entitled to a credit block, although it says nothing of the sort anywhere. Not in the statute or anywhere else I've looked. This is garbage put in as part of the negotiation process that occurs any time corporate interests clash with consumer protection laws.

So let me get this straight. If you don't want the police knocking on your door or you don't want to be witness against a relative or potentially dangerous criminal don't file this affidavit (BTW, when you are a witness your home address is made available to the perp). If some of the charges on a hijacked account are yours or charges appear as if they're yours, forget it. Then if you answer yes to all of them and you're wrong or change your mind then Bruno's men in black will be coming to get you for "making a false statement." But if you answer no to any of the questions you don't get a credit block. I don't think so.

Flyingifr

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Re: DV Letter With Possibility of ID Theft
« Reply #43 on: March 09, 2016 12:48:50 AM »
Yescat - if you want to scream "Identity Theft" you can. No Government Agency will come knocking on your door in the middle of the night or any other time over this. It took how many years to find Osama bin Laden? I would think he might have been a little higher on their priority list than you are.

As long as you don't file a police report, and you are not REQUIRED to, then you are not stating anything "under oath". If the creditor wants to ask you questions, you can always plead ignorance. Here are some sample "talk offs"ight occuer - "C" is "Collector" and "Y" is Yescat:

#1:
C: You are claiming that this is identity theft?
Y: Yes
C: Do you know who stole your identity?
Y: With the problems they have caused me, if I did they would be dead and I would be in jail

#2:
C: We cannot consider this as Identity Theft unless you tell us who stole your identity
Y: You have it backwards - the burden of proof is on you to show that the account IS mine, not on me to show that it isn't. After you have met that burden of proof then I have the right to rebut your proof, but the burden of proof is yours, not mine.

#3
C: I don't believe you
Y: That's too bad - Identity Theft will be my defense in Court, so you had better start taking it seriously

#4
C: I don't care if it Identity Theft or not, your name is on the account, you owe the money.
Y: I have a bill in my hand that was sent to you some time ago. It was never disputed and no objection was made. That constitutes and admission of the account under the Account Stated doctrine. Are you going to pay the $1 million you owe me or do I have to sue for it? You believe what you want, I'll believe what I want.

Get the idea?
BTW-the Flyingifr Method does work. (quoted from Hannah on Infinite Credit, September 19, 2006)

I think of a telephone as a Debt Collector's crowbar. With such a device it is possible to pry one's mouth open wide enough to allow the insertion of a foot or two.

Debtors Exams are the perfect place for us Senior Citizens to show off our recently acquired Alzheimers.

Founder of the Credit Terrorist Training Camp (Debtorboards)

RocketGoBoom

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Re: DV Letter With Possibility of ID Theft
« Reply #44 on: March 09, 2016 12:49:01 AM »
Yescat, I would have no issue with filling out the declarations as they are implying in sections 11, 12 and 13.

Fill out the entire affidavit however is appropriate.

Skip optional sections 20 and 21 related to police and penalties if you are at all concerned about the complete accuracy of the document, or if you don't have complete info from the CA/JDB/OC because they didn't reply to your validation letter with enough info.

Sign it and mail it.

There are no penalties if something turns out to be inaccurate later.