Author Topic: DV Letter With Possibility of ID Theft  (Read 11493 times)

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Bruno the JDB Killer

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Re: DV Letter With Possibility of ID Theft
« Reply #15 on: March 08, 2016 02:30:38 PM »
With those two items, you have created a legitimate ID Theft report and have established basically all that you need.


It's only legitimate if it's true and provable. If the FTC gets involved, they may require the OC to provide a history of the account. Rest assured, most of them can do exactly that if they have to. Citi has complete account histories going back over 30 years, for instance. JDBs don't have this info and won't pay to get it.

What you don't want is a government agency plopping five years of bank statements in front of you and asking you to point out what charges you did not make. Also, if you made payments on the account over the years, you'll have to explain why you paid for a stolen credit card. Some tactics work well to make it difficult for collectors, but some of them can get you arrested. Better read section 21 of that affidavit before you do this.
I am not an attorney. Any information I post is strictly my opinion and should be treated as such.

Yescat

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Re: DV Letter With Possibility of ID Theft
« Reply #16 on: March 08, 2016 02:35:26 PM »
With those two items, you have created a legitimate ID Theft report and have established basically all that you need.


It's only legitimate if it's true and provable. If the FTC gets involved, they may require the OC to provide a history of the account. Rest assured, most of them can do exactly that if they have to. Citi has complete account histories going back over 30 years, for instance. JDBs don't have this info and won't pay to get it.

What you don't want is a government agency plopping five years of bank statements in front of you and asking you to point out what charges you did not make. Also, if you made payments on the account over the years, you'll have to explain why you paid for a stolen credit card. Some tactics work well to make it difficult for collectors, but some of them can get you arrested. Better read section 21 of that affidavit before you do this.

Notice section 22 doesn't make any such warnings.

Yescat

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Re: DV Letter With Possibility of ID Theft
« Reply #17 on: March 08, 2016 02:38:17 PM »
With those two items, you have created a legitimate ID Theft report and have established basically all that you need.


It's only legitimate if it's true and provable. If the FTC gets involved, they may require the OC to provide a history of the account. Rest assured, most of them can do exactly that if they have to. Citi has complete account histories going back over 30 years, for instance. JDBs don't have this info and won't pay to get it.

What you don't want is a government agency plopping five years of bank statements in front of you and asking you to point out what charges you did not make. Also, if you made payments on the account over the years, you'll have to explain why you paid for a stolen credit card. Some tactics work well to make it difficult for collectors, but some of them can get you arrested. Better read section 21 of that affidavit before you do this.

This is what I'm finding posted on various police websites.

"Note: identity theft cases are generally difficult to prove beyond a reasonable doubt due to a lack of adequate physical evidence. This is due in part to standard business practices (or policies) as businesses conduct day-to-day operations. Businesses are normally unable to provide necessary evidence (applications, contracts, receipts, etc.) or have had no actual personal contact with the perpetrator of the fraudulent act.

On occasion, you may receive information about the perpetrator such as an address, phone number or an e-mail address used to commit fraud. This information is a leadin the investigation and while usually not sufficient in and of itself to make an arrest or to facilitate submission of the case to the State Attorney's Office, you should report the information to the law enforcement agency where you filed the police report. Evidence must prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the perpetrator is in fact the specific individual who committed the crime of identity theft."

Bruno the JDB Killer

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Re: DV Letter With Possibility of ID Theft
« Reply #18 on: March 08, 2016 02:49:30 PM »
The usual tactic is to work with an insider at a bank. I knew somebody who did this. The insider would tell him when a batch of credit cards was mailed out, and provide the names and addresses. He would then grab them out of the mailbox before the person came home. They used primarily unsolicited credit cards. The "victim" never even knew the card had been issued.

The cases are hard to resolve because the victim has no clue who took the card. However, that is not what happens when you file an ID theft claim which is not true. It's very easy to prove a fraudulent filing because of the absence of evidence to the contrary, and the presence of evidence that you indeed used the card yourself.
I am not an attorney. Any information I post is strictly my opinion and should be treated as such.

RocketGoBoom

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Re: DV Letter With Possibility of ID Theft
« Reply #19 on: March 08, 2016 03:26:17 PM »
With those two items, you have created a legitimate ID Theft report and have established basically all that you need.


It's only legitimate if it's true and provable. If the FTC gets involved, they may require the OC to provide a history of the account. Rest assured, most of them can do exactly that if they have to. Citi has complete account histories going back over 30 years, for instance. JDBs don't have this info and won't pay to get it.

What you don't want is a government agency plopping five years of bank statements in front of you and asking you to point out what charges you did not make. Also, if you made payments on the account over the years, you'll have to explain why you paid for a stolen credit card. Some tactics work well to make it difficult for collectors, but some of them can get you arrested. Better read section 21 of that affidavit before you do this.

Do you realize that the FTC affidavit doesn't get sent to the FTC?

It is a form that you create and you send to the CA, JDB or OC.

This is not a process between you and the FTC.
It is a letter writing campaign between you and the CA, JDB or OC.

There are no government agency process involved at all. There is no situation where the FTC plops anything in front of you demanding you do anything. This is a simple letter writing campaign between you and your target. Worst case scenario is that they ignore your FTC affidavit papers. You can withdraw at any time and change your tactics.

You write your letters with the FTC affidavit to your target, the target typically accepts the FTC affidavit and reclassifies the account to something much lower priority, or closes it entirely and deletes. That is the reality of what happens.

The way that the OP phased his letter in the first post of this topic is entirely appropriate and would likely result in some positive outcomes.
« Last Edit: March 08, 2016 03:33:03 PM by RocketGoBoom »

RocketGoBoom

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Re: DV Letter With Possibility of ID Theft
« Reply #20 on: March 08, 2016 03:43:12 PM »
The usual tactic is to work with an insider at a bank. I knew somebody who did this. The insider would tell him when a batch of credit cards was mailed out, and provide the names and addresses. He would then grab them out of the mailbox before the person came home. They used primarily unsolicited credit cards. The "victim" never even knew the card had been issued.

The cases are hard to resolve because the victim has no clue who took the card. However, that is not what happens when you file an ID theft claim which is not true. It's very easy to prove a fraudulent filing because of the absence of evidence to the contrary, and the presence of evidence that you indeed used the card yourself.

Bruno, you sound like you are just making stuff up now. That is not at all how they proceed with an ID Theft investigation.

My wife received a $30,000 demand from a company collecting for Intuit Payment Solution. It turns out a former bookkeeper where she worked had used my wife's info. We created an FTC affidavit and got a police report. We sent it to the CA and Intuit Payment Solutions. They responded with a copy of their own version of the FTC affidavit, because they didn't like the FTC's form. Their form was roughly the same, but much shorter.

In the meantime we sent the FTC affidavit and police report to the three credit bureaus.
All three credit bureaus deleted right away. Within days. It was so fast that I suspect they didn't even contract the provider of info.

It took another month before we received a letter from Intuit releasing their claims entirely and telling us they had closed their account regarding my wife. But they did it. It just took about 3 letters to get them to that point. They said they would send delete info to credit bureaus. But it was already gone.

That is how the process works.
No phone calls, no dramatic confrontations in front of guys in suits, no arrests.
It is a paperwork process and jumping through their hoops so they can check off their boxes and process the file.

Bruno the JDB Killer

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Re: DV Letter With Possibility of ID Theft
« Reply #21 on: March 08, 2016 05:22:42 PM »
It may work with CRAs because you don't owe them any money. Creditors just might take you up on it and ask you to prove the  claim if they decide to sue. Call it what you want, it is a crime to file a false report. All I am saying is that our members should not engage in illegal activities. Don't believe you cab be arrested for this? Tell this guy. There are lots more on Google.


http://kfor.com/2014/05/28/man-arrested-after-allegedly-claiming-identity-theft-to-avoid-paying-back-loans/
I am not an attorney. Any information I post is strictly my opinion and should be treated as such.

RocketGoBoom

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Re: DV Letter With Possibility of ID Theft
« Reply #22 on: March 08, 2016 06:43:12 PM »
It may work with CRAs because you don't owe them any money. Creditors just might take you up on it and ask you to prove the  claim if they decide to sue. Call it what you want, it is a crime to file a false report. All I am saying is that our members should not engage in illegal activities. Don't believe you cab be arrested for this? Tell this guy. There are lots more on Google.

Bruno, taking your scenarios to such an extreme edge case is not really useful to the discussion.
You are addressing the 1 in a 1000 scenario (or lower) that is not even at all applicable to the discussion that the OP started in this topic.

The reality is that probably 99% of the time (or more) this is a paperwork process that just involves letters back and forth between you and the CA/JDB/OC.

It seems very common here on this website that people respond with such extreme unlikely scenarios when addressing common discussion topics.
Why don't you back up and revisit the first post in this topic from the OP.

He didn't propose any of the extremes where you are taking your response.
He posted some very tame wording in his letter that will likely result in the account being reclassified into a lower priority or deleted entirely.
That is the bottom line.

To respond to the OP that he is going to be hauled into court to prove everything or face an inquisition by the FTC .... that is just ridiculous.
Re-read the first post in this topic.

The likely response by the target of his letter is going to be a form letter with a copy of their version of the FTC affidavit for him to fill out.
That is the reality of what will happen here.
Not the extremes that you are fantasizing about.
« Last Edit: March 08, 2016 07:13:00 PM by RocketGoBoom »

RocketGoBoom

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Re: DV Letter With Possibility of ID Theft
« Reply #23 on: March 08, 2016 07:00:54 PM »
I would like to also clarify one misconception that should be understood by all so that this misinformation is hopefully not repeated any longer.

With those two items, you have created a legitimate ID Theft report and have established basically all that you need.

It's only legitimate if it's true and provable.

An ID Theft claim doesn't need to be "provable" by the individual at all.
There is absolutely zero obligation for an individual to prove anything.

If you don't recognize an account on your credit files or if you are getting demands for payment you don't recognize, then you are perfectly within your rights to file a very minimal/generic police report and fill out the FTC affidavit.

Then you are perfectly within your rights to forward the police report & FTC affidavit to the credit bureaus and the CA/JDB/OC.

There is absolutely ZERO obligation for you to prove it.

After that, the responsibility to prove anything to the contrary is on the company (CA/JDB/OC).
Even if they have statements or payments or plenty of other examples of "evidence", that still doesn't disprove your ID Theft claim.
There are plenty of cases of illegal aliens, relatives, co-workers, or others using someone else's info to open and use credit accounts.

You don't have to spend your life running around proving what happened to support your ID Theft claim.
That is not how the law is written and that is not how it is enforced.

Your ID Theft report will be generally accepted as true if you follow the correct procedures.
It is an extreme edge case scenario that an ID Theft report would be rejected.
« Last Edit: March 08, 2016 07:07:30 PM by RocketGoBoom »

Bruno the JDB Killer

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Re: DV Letter With Possibility of ID Theft
« Reply #24 on: March 08, 2016 07:24:21 PM »
An ID Theft claim doesn't need to be "provable" by the individual at all.
There is absolutely zero obligation for an individual to prove anything
.


This statement shows a complete ignorance of the law and court procedure. If ID theft is asserted as a defense to a credit card law suit, the plaintiff most certainly has the option of sending you discovery demanding you provide the legal and factual basis for your defense. See Twombly and Iqbal. Failure to do so gets the defense stricken.

I don't care how many hair-brained schemes you or anybody else here got away with, the basic fact is that what is being hinted at here is technically  illegal, especially if reported to a government agency of any kind. When I found that case I linked to, there were dozens more where people got bagged for doing what you suggest. One of them was a police officer who faced 20 years for doing this on behalf of himself and others.

I am not an attorney. Any information I post is strictly my opinion and should be treated as such.

RocketGoBoom

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Re: DV Letter With Possibility of ID Theft
« Reply #25 on: March 08, 2016 07:31:53 PM »
An ID Theft claim doesn't need to be "provable" by the individual at all.
There is absolutely zero obligation for an individual to prove anything
.


This statement shows a complete ignorance of the law and court procedure. If ID theft is asserted as a defense to a credit card law suit, the plaintiff most certainly has the option of sending you discovery demanding you provide the legal and factual basis for your defense. See Twombly and Iqbal. Failure to do so gets the defense stricken.

I don't care how many hair-brained schemes you or anybody else here got away with, the basic fact is that what is being hinted at here is technically  illegal, especially if reported to a government agency of any kind. When I found that case I linked to, there were dozens more where people got bagged for doing what you suggest. One of them was a police officer who faced 20 years for doing this on behalf of himself and others.

Why are you jumping so directly to such extremes?
That is not even remotely what is being discussed here in this topic.

Lawsuit scenarios are not the issue here. That is a straw man argument.

This is a discussion of the OP's letter, the process and the likely results of the process.
Re-read his first post in this topic.

And I am entirely correct. An individual doesn't need to prove their ID Theft claim at all in order to file a police report. If you don't recognize a debt, you are perfectly within your rights to file a police report, fill out the FTC affidavit and then mail those two items to all relevant parties. It is not at all illegal to do that. In fact, it is the recommended course of action by the FTC and just about every valid source out there.

And most CAs, JDBs, OCs and credit bureaus will accept that documentation promptly, close their account and delete any negative tradelines. That is how this process works.

I don't understand why you are jumping to such extreme scenarios in what is a very common process that is generally accepted by everyone.
« Last Edit: March 08, 2016 07:56:53 PM by RocketGoBoom »

Yescat

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Re: DV Letter With Possibility of ID Theft
« Reply #26 on: March 08, 2016 08:27:05 PM »
It may work with CRAs because you don't owe them any money. Creditors just might take you up on it and ask you to prove the  claim if they decide to sue. Call it what you want, it is a crime to file a false report. All I am saying is that our members should not engage in illegal activities. Don't believe you cab be arrested for this? Tell this guy. There are lots more on Google.


http://kfor.com/2014/05/28/man-arrested-after-allegedly-claiming-identity-theft-to-avoid-paying-back-loans/

There aren't "lots more on Google" unless you consider lots TWO. The other as you mentioned is a former cop. These two people were racketeers committing bank fraud with a clearly provable, "scheme." If they just filed a false police report they would be charged with a misdemeanor not racketeering. I can't find anyone who is a normal person desperately trying to get a creditors of the back resorting to "illegal activity" for a solution. I did however find a cop that was arrested for selling police reports to a credit repair company. And I saw complaints in Ripoffreport about it as well. So this must be going on a lot. I kind of doubt, "one in four people" are really victims identity theft.

But if everyone starts doing it they'll change the law and it will hurt the ones who deserve it. So maybe Bruno is right telling you the Men In Black are going to come kicking down your door. Or at least he's doing the wrong thing for the right reason.

I think the idea of engaging in illegal activities is in your head which is why I guess you feel you need to exaggerate things. I didn't see anyone proposing anything illegal. This reminds me of the conversations 20 years ago when disputing a debt was still taboo.
« Last Edit: March 08, 2016 09:10:24 PM by Yescat »

BellEbutton

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Re: DV Letter With Possibility of ID Theft
« Reply #27 on: March 08, 2016 08:38:31 PM »
I would like to also clarify one misconception that should be understood by all so that this misinformation is hopefully not repeated any longer.

An ID Theft claim doesn't need to be "provable" by the individual at all.
There is absolutely zero obligation for an individual to prove anything.



While ID theft may not have to be provable, wouldn't it have to be plausible?   If claim of ID theft is not made until a credit card is charged off and purchased by a JDB, doesn't the plausibility bar become higher?

Yescat

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Re: DV Letter With Possibility of ID Theft
« Reply #28 on: March 08, 2016 08:41:56 PM »
Bruno, taking your scenarios to such an extreme edge case is not really useful to the discussion.
You are addressing the 1 in a 1000 scenario (or lower) that is not even at all applicable to the discussion that the OP started in this topic.

The reality is that probably 99% of the time (or more) this is a paperwork process that just involves letters back and forth between you and the CA/JDB/OC.

It seems very common here on this website that people respond with such extreme unlikely scenarios when addressing common discussion topics.
Why don't you back up and revisit the first post in this topic from the OP.

He didn't propose any of the extremes where you are taking your response.
He posted some very tame wording in his letter that will likely result in the account being reclassified into a lower priority or deleted entirely.
That is the bottom line.

To respond to the OP that he is going to be hauled into court to prove everything or face an inquisition by the FTC .... that is just ridiculous.
Re-read the first post in this topic.

The likely response by the target of his letter is going to be a form letter with a copy of their version of the FTC affidavit for him to fill out.
That is the reality of what will happen here.
Not the extremes that you are fantasizing about.

I think fantasizing about such extremes will also scare someone who has been legitimately victimized. 40% of the population have been arrested, some for good reasons some for bogus reasons, and have to live with the trauma of being treated like an animal. I know many people who would feel very uncomfortable walking into a police station to do what it's their right to do. This kind of fear mongering won't help. I bet eventually the CA's are going to be putting out propaganda to scare people into not exercising their rights. They definitely did it 20 years ago when I first sought to repair my credit. They would send people to this link at the FTC that said something like disputing a debt is a crime if you know it's yours.
« Last Edit: March 08, 2016 09:11:36 PM by Yescat »

Yescat

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Re: DV Letter With Possibility of ID Theft
« Reply #29 on: March 08, 2016 09:03:24 PM »
I would like to also clarify one misconception that should be understood by all so that this misinformation is hopefully not repeated any longer.

An ID Theft claim doesn't need to be "provable" by the individual at all.
There is absolutely zero obligation for an individual to prove anything.

If you don't recognize an account on your credit files or if you are getting demands for payment you don't recognize, then you are perfectly within your rights to file a very minimal/generic police report and fill out the FTC affidavit.

Then you are perfectly within your rights to forward the police report & FTC affidavit to the credit bureaus and the CA/JDB/OC.

There is absolutely ZERO obligation for you to prove it.

After that, the responsibility to prove anything to the contrary is on the company (CA/JDB/OC).
Even if they have statements or payments or plenty of other examples of "evidence", that still doesn't disprove your ID Theft claim.
There are plenty of cases of illegal aliens, relatives, co-workers, or others using someone else's info to open and use credit accounts.

You don't have to spend your life running around proving what happened to support your ID Theft claim.
That is not how the law is written and that is not how it is enforced.

Your ID Theft report will be generally accepted as true if you follow the correct procedures.
It is an extreme edge case scenario that an ID Theft report would be rejected.

My friend's daughter in law who lived in their home took out a credit card in his name and used it for years just as if it was her own. She paid the monthly payments on time until she lost her job and they kicked her out of the house. She defaulted and that's when they figured out what she was doing. So just the fact that the payments were getting paid doesn't prove the account was not fraudulent. I'm sure that sort of thing happens a lot.

 

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