Author Topic: Can you discharge fines from your state government?  (Read 2609 times)

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HeadsUp

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Can you discharge fines from your state government?
« on: November 06, 2015 08:15:09 PM »
I am asking this for a relative...

If this person filed bankruptcy, could he discharge $55,000 in restitution for fraudulently received benefits and $11,000 in fines and other fees?
Finally a collector admits it...

"The reality is that there are people who can't pay and the job of an agency in my opinion is to separate those who can and those who cant and to not waste resources and efforts on those who cant." -- Dr. Evil.

All this nonsense about aggressive judgment enforcement against someone with no assets is just that-- utter nonsense.

http://www.debtorboards.com/index.php?topic=13309.msg100303#msg100303

Bruno the JDB Killer

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Re: Can you discharge fines from your state government?
« Reply #1 on: November 06, 2015 08:38:08 PM »
Unlikely, depending on what the benefits were. FlyingIFR will know this. If the benefits were federally related, I'd say no.
I am not an attorney. Any information I post is strictly my opinion and should be treated as such.

brutor0371

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Re: Can you discharge fines from your state government?
« Reply #2 on: November 06, 2015 09:23:35 PM »
I am asking this for a relative...

If this person filed bankruptcy, could he discharge $55,000 in restitution for fraudulently received benefits and $11,000 in fines and other fees?

Details? What kind of benefits was it?

Unemployment? Food stamps? etc?

shellieh98

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Re: Can you discharge fines from your state government?
« Reply #3 on: November 06, 2015 11:26:23 PM »
I don't think so, I know most state or federal fines, assistance, etc. that have money owed to them by a debtor are not dis chargeable in BK, I can't think of a single one that is.  Even city fines such as to a fire dept. or city trash.  It's ok to default on credit cards owned by banks, creditors, but not anything that has to do with government/state.  (kind of a double standard)

11181986

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Re: Can you discharge fines from your state government?
« Reply #4 on: November 06, 2015 11:30:26 PM »
also any debt that is owed as a result of fraud is not dischargeable, that includes credit cards, loans and other unsecured credit obligations.

kevinmanheim

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Re: Can you discharge fines from your state government?
« Reply #5 on: November 07, 2015 11:10:54 AM »
also any debt that is owed as a result of fraud is not dischargeable, that includes credit cards, loans and other unsecured credit obligations.
This.

If the word fraud is related to the debt, it can't be discharged.

despritfreya

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Re: Can you discharge fines from your state government?
« Reply #6 on: November 07, 2015 12:44:51 PM »
This. If the word fraud is related to the debt, it can't be discharged.

I have not read through the entire thread (which I may do when I have more time) but I did see the above and felt the need to comment.

Issues pertaining to fraud are dischargeable unless the creditor timely files a complaint under 11 USC 523(a)(2) and/or (a)(4) and then "wins".  Such complaints must be filed within 60 days from the 341 meeting.  If not timely filed, the debt is discharged regardless of allegations or findings of fraud outside of the bk.

The word "fraud" also pops up when determining if certain taxes are dischargeable.  If there was a finding of fraud then one of the prongs to discharge taxes that are more than 3 years old will not be met and the tax will not be discharged.  If the taxing agency wants the bk court to "confirm" the finding, it may file an action under 11 USC 523(a)(1).  Such an action is not time sensitive.

The word "fraud" is also found in 11 USC 523(a)(19) relating to securities fraud.  An action brought under this provision is not time sensitive.

There are other provisions under Section 523 that talk in terms of fraud but they rarely come up in a case.

The only reason I post this - Folks who commit fraud in obtaining credit, such that would be subject to 523(a)(2) and/or (a)(4) can (and often do) "get away with it" if the creditor fails to timely act once the bk is filed.

Des

Bruno the JDB Killer

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Re: Can you discharge fines from your state government?
« Reply #7 on: November 07, 2015 12:54:45 PM »
A couple of years ago, we had a poster on another board who went to France, ran up 100K on an Amex card, then filed BK. They protested, and he got stuck with the debt.
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despritfreya

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Re: Can you discharge fines from your state government?
« Reply #8 on: November 07, 2015 01:25:58 PM »
A couple of years ago, we had a poster on another board who went to France, ran up 100K on an Amex card, then filed BK. They protested, and he got stuck with the debt.

No doubt.  Amex is one of the more aggressive of the institutional credit card companies.

Des.

Flyingifr

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Re: Can you discharge fines from your state government?
« Reply #9 on: November 07, 2015 03:24:44 PM »
I am asking this for a relative...

If this person filed bankruptcy, could he discharge $55,000 in restitution for fraudulently received benefits and $11,000 in fines and other fees?

No. Debts incurred through fraud, defalcation or criminal behavior are not dischargeable.
BTW-the Flyingifr Method does work. (quoted from Hannah on Infinite Credit, September 19, 2006)

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kevinmanheim

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Re: Can you discharge fines from your state government?
« Reply #10 on: November 07, 2015 05:44:38 PM »
A couple of years ago, we had a poster on another board who went to France, ran up 100K on an Amex card, then filed BK. They protested, and he got stuck with the debt.
There are several BK court cases that address this type of issue. One guy used his CCs to buy gold bars, hid them then filed BK.


Bruno the JDB Killer

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Re: Can you discharge fines from your state government?
« Reply #11 on: November 07, 2015 06:25:05 PM »
Cute. I believe there is a term for people who do that. "Convict." Do NOT mess with Uncle Sam. The sentence for BK fraud could be rather harsh.

The problem OP's "friend" may face eventually is criminal prosecution if they engaged in fraud to get these benefits. I'd be more worried about that.
I am not an attorney. Any information I post is strictly my opinion and should be treated as such.

despritfreya

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Re: Can you discharge fines from your state government?
« Reply #12 on: November 08, 2015 12:06:57 AM »
could he discharge $55,000 in restitution. . . and $11,000 in fines

11 USC 523(a)(7) holds as non dischargeable, "a fine, penalty, or forfeiture payable to and for the benefit of a governmental unit, and is not compensation for actual pecuniary loss. . .".

11 USC 523(a)(13) holds as non dischargeable, "any payment of an order of restitution issued under title 18, United States Code".  Title 18 is for federal (not state) crimes.

So, if your friend's restitution/fine falls under one of the above, it is simply non-dischargeable.

Can you tell us what the issues were/are?

Des.

HeadsUp

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Re: Can you discharge fines from your state government?
« Reply #13 on: November 08, 2015 04:38:18 PM »
11 USC 523(a)(7) holds as non dischargeable, "a fine, penalty, or forfeiture payable to and for the benefit of a governmental unit, and is not compensation for actual pecuniary loss. . .".

11 USC 523(a)(13) holds as non dischargeable, "any payment of an order of restitution issued under title 18, United States Code".  Title 18 is for federal (not state) crimes.

So, if your friend's restitution/fine falls under one of the above, it is simply non-dischargeable.

Can you tell us what the issues were/are?

Des.

He was "malingering."

So, that debt will have to be paid off or follow him to his grave.  I'll let him know.

So, I do not know if anyone here knows the answer to this, but what happens to him if cannot afford to pay it back?  Jail time?  Or is it more like a judgment that just never goes away, allowing them to garnish wages, seize assets, etc.?  Or both?
Finally a collector admits it...

"The reality is that there are people who can't pay and the job of an agency in my opinion is to separate those who can and those who cant and to not waste resources and efforts on those who cant." -- Dr. Evil.

All this nonsense about aggressive judgment enforcement against someone with no assets is just that-- utter nonsense.

http://www.debtorboards.com/index.php?topic=13309.msg100303#msg100303

Bruno the JDB Killer

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Re: Can you discharge fines from your state government?
« Reply #14 on: November 08, 2015 05:28:13 PM »
This is a little out of  our realm of subject matter, and we don't have enough information. It sounds like he faked or exaggerated an illness to collect benefits. That in itself constitutes a fraudulent act.

They want their money back, and assessed a penalty. If there was no court action, I would say prosecution is one of their options.I would suggest he see a criminal defense attorney and find out just what they can do.
I am not an attorney. Any information I post is strictly my opinion and should be treated as such.

 

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